Jacob, a liberal (the good kind of liberal)Wrote:
Moneywise it pays better to exit with a Masters. They earn only a little less than PhDs but over a lifetime the higher wage earned from a PhD doesn't make up for the lost low-income years of getting it.

Unless you want to be a professor at a university. :-)

Jacob, a liberal (the good kind of liberal)Wrote:
[t]BeckiWrote:
[t]Jacob, a liberal (the good kind of liberal)Wrote:
Moneywise it pays better to exit with a Masters. They earn only a little less than PhDs but over a lifetime the higher wage earned from a PhD doesn't make up for the lost low-income years of getting it.
[/t]
Unless you want to be a professor at a university. :-)[/t]
No, I think that's even worse. In order to be a professor (at least at a research university) you have to spend several years (3-6) as a postdoc further widening the lifetime income gap. That is unless you got an engineering degree in which case you oftentimes can go straigth to teaching because there's less of a PhD glut - probably because engineers are all out in the real world earning big money :)
Being a professor is good money for the kind of freedom (working hours, free choice of research, .. ) it provides, though.

Oh, yeah, I meant that you have to get a PhD, not just a Master's, to be a University professor. It definitely puts you in more debt, no doubt about it! I'm living proof. Ugh. It's about more than money for me though; it's about achieving a higher goal that I set for myself. Sure wish I was independently wealthy though, because I WILL be working while in grad school. Unless I find a really nice, funny, and as a bonus, wealthy, man to support me. Any takers? Heehee :-) Just kidding...I would never want to rely on someone else to support me. Sure hope I get some grants though.

I think every grad student needs to experience a good burnout to discover if they really should be in grad school. I never experienced a huge burnout...just a long series of mini ones, that occassionally overlapped, and made me want to tear my hair out by the roots while screaming at the top of my lungs...but every single time I came back...I was near tears several times and contemplated giving up, but I didn't. One of my committee members asked me why I wanted to continue in the program. I could easily become a very competent tech quickly and didn't need all the years in school to get me there, but I rediscovered that I like school...and I like the research...except for the writing. :) On top of it all, I was working a job in Los Angeles while going to school in San Diego (a 2 hour commute for you non-Californians)...the commute was tough, but I only worked part-time...that helped...but I think your bouts of burnout are your body and mind's way of making sure you're doing something you want to do and are committed to. I stuck with it...took me a long time to get my Masters, but I stuck with it anyway.

Ask yourself why you're in the program...and whether you'll be happy if you leave it. If you can leave happy and can't forsee yourself ever wondering "what if I had stayed, " then it's time to go. Otherwise...burnout is just one of the joys of grad school.

Lisa, you're my new best friend. :-) I think that is great advice, and I will remember your words when I hit those tough spots! You're perspective is admirable. Thanks for posting!

man i wish i could tell you. im in the same freaking boat! i just keep focusing on the fact that in 5 years (GOD WILLING!) people will be calling me Dr. Laurie Fernandez . . . that usually helps

I disagree with Jacob's cynicism, but I agree with many of his practical points, like reading management books and learning from business and such.

I think there must be a sampling bias on these forums - i.e. mostly it's the unhappy people who post on these kinds of forums. The happy people are usually out doing their thing.

I guess that makes me in the minority. As usual.

I'm in my 3rd year also. I have an insane, inhuman amount of work to do, the stress is incredible, I'm averaging between 3-6 hours of sleep a night (and I sleep at work, during the week), eating is a chore and a hassle, I usually work till 2 or 3 in the morning, and a good chunk of the weekend, my friends and family complain they never hear from me, and when they do, they can't understand me, I've got deadlines approaching like freight trucks doing 75, I'm too focused to care about all my new gray hairs, I haven't done dishes in months, I've got money management and funding challenges, I entered grad school way behind, and only now am I coming abreast of my labmates in terms of conceptual control and innovation, and it'll be at least 5 years before I've contributed a similar amount in our field, I'll probably be here another 3.5 years, whereas a guy who entered my year will start applying for post-docs next year....

And I'm ecstatic. And I'm not a masochist, either. Quite the opposite. I love what I do so much, I'm not sure I could be this kind of happy elsewhere. I astound myself on a regular basis.

My purposes and goals are clear, I have a very good idea of my options, and what it takes to realize each one, I don't expect anyone to do anything for me (including teaching me personal, stress and time-management techniques), and I'm pretty much a maverick in everything I do, every aspect of my life - I just make sure I've always got my bases covered, in terms of boxes checked, networking, marketing myself, my ideas and my qualifications, so that I don't have to worry about the floor falling out from under me at any moment, and I'm free to run.

And I noticed just the other day, during our (once-a-leap-year) lab meeting, that my advisor and my labmates really praised my ideas, directions, and all this stuff *I* have made and done - all the stuff that's uniquely mine and I'm totally excited about, and proud of, and working my tail off on - and I barely noticed. I registered their positive feedback (I'd have taken more detailed note of any criticisms, so I could go check my work afterwards), but that was about it. I realized I'm impervious, on the personal level, to both insults and compliments from most people, especially at work.

My sense of self-worth comes from how I judge my mind to be meshing with reality *in its approach*, not so much the content, which is always changing and improving, and this is independent of specific people's evaluations of me and my work. I evaluate myself constantly, in terms of worth, purpose, direction, goals and achievement (long and short-term), and this is my high-octane fuel. I *crave* my goals. I want them so badly, but I also want to own every step of the process it takes to get there. So I'm insanely happy while working, even if I feel like a zombie. I don't want to do anything else.

Living and working are under-rated - usually for lack of integration and clarity of purpose, I've found.

Purpose is a lovely word. In Aristotle's ethics, the word usually translated as "choice" means, more precisely, "deliberate(d) choice". Milton (1644, I think) called it "That branch of ethics having to do with reason, " and it is also translated in Aristotle as "purpose." The word is proairesis, which is both a Greek and English word, but is almost never used. I have it tattooed on my wrist. It's the point, the fact which (by its presence or absence) is the essence of human life, and therefore determines its character and quality, if not its outcome, broadly speaking. And it is completely volitional.

I've settled down a lot in the past few months. I have a home now (read: I've chosen a lab and have a semi-defined project). I'm a little annoyed with course work, having to take a "grant writing" course is a pain in the ass. Writing a 20 page grant proposal on a topic NOT related to my thesis sounds like a collossal waste of time.
I'm teaching this year, and really enjoy interacting with the students. I've taken an undergrad under my wing in the lab, and enjoy helping him with research, even though he can be trying at times. Overall, I'm more settled and satisfied now.

Speaking with someone at CAPS (Counseling and psychological services) once last sem really helped me calm down. I've gotten over my insomnia (YAY!). Overall I feel more comfortable and settled.

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I'll keep that in mind. I'm off to design a grading rubric (fun fun!) lol.

Burnout is all in your head.
Get out there and do something you normally wouldn't do, something major.
Coast until the burn feeling goes away, then get back to work.
Personally I like scene changes ;)
Fly somewhere they don't know English ;) then try and scam you're way back ;)