Grupos » One on One Debates » Temas » "Miss Lady Sarah Maree" v "Calvin THE Ninja"

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Agent Remunerative Thinker

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HERNDON,
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Responde con esta cita Responder a esta publicación Publicado:  dic 11, 2005 5:47 a.m.
This is the thread devoted to the debate that Calvin and Sarah Maree have agreed to undertake after much discussion in this thread. The resolution to this debate is: Is Baptism necessary for Salvation.


Sarah will take the affirmative and Calvin will take the negative.


The rules to the debate are as follows:


1. This is a civil debate - there will be no insult hurling.
2. This debate will last five rounds. Calvin will give the opening statement and Sarah Maree will then give a rebuttal.
3. Unfamiliar terms will be defined upon request.
4. All sources will be cited properly.

Calvin


M/26
Wherever I May Roam,
Florida
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Responde con esta cita Responder Publicado: ene 13, 2006 8:05 p.m.
The God of the Bible works through covenants and he uses different signs as manifestations for them. Just as circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic covenant, baptism is an outward sign of the Covenant of Grace. Our inner regeneration is made known outward by obedience to God's command. Baptism is not a soteriological mandate, it's a work that we perform in obedience to God. Note Matthew 3:15 Where Jesus calls baptism a work of righteousness, other passages such as Titus 3:15, Ephesians 2:8-9 reject such works as an requirement for salvation. Our acts naturally follow from our faith.

Scripture is clear that faith is the only condition for salvation. "The righteous will live by faith.” (Romans 1:17) The man who trusts in the God that “justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5) God saves us “not because of righteous things we have done, but because of his mercy.” (Titus 3:5) Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it even more clear that we are not justified by our works, but by God's gift and Christ's death on the cross. In the gospel of John1 we are presented with the requirements for salvation many of times. It's always the man that believes that is saved. Nothing more. If someone is to hold, as Sarah does, that there are more requirements then that entire passage is misleading; it never presents the actual plan of our salvation.

Look at Acts 10:47 when compared to Acts 11:16-18. The order is very clear. They received the Holy Spirit first, and then they were baptized with water. Baptism was not a condition, but a result of their salvation that came by faith alone. Once someone receives the Holy Spirit they are in God's sovereign grasp and those that He calls shall never be removed from His hands.2

As Jonah tells us, “Salvation is of the Lord” (Jon. 2:9) and Romans 9:10-13 tells us straight up that God chooses His own elect. His choice is not based on our acts, for if it was he would have chosen Esau over Jacob. Stating that any works are necessary destroys God's sovereignty over salvation and places it in the hands of the believer. Christ did not come to simply make our salvation a possibility, but to actually save us. God's gift is not a proposal that was put out for us to take or reject. We do not choose God's gift of salvation, but he chooses us (John 15:16).

Mark 16:16: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; but whoever does not believe will be condemned."


A very important principle of Biblical interpretation states that the difficult passages should be interpreted in light of the easy, clear passages. Building one's theology on said verses is a dangerous thing to do. The clearer verses state that one is saved by faith in Christ, and faith alone. Sarah attempts to compare this verse with “A man must wear a suit and tie to dine at this restaurant, and he who does not wear a suit will be asked to leave, ” but this is not what this verse says at all. It is very clear to me that it is the disbelief of the person that brings damnation, not the lack of baptism, ”but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16 clearly states that those who do not believe are “asked to leave, ” not those who were not “wearing a suit and tie.” No where will you find the passage that those who are not baptized are damned, but you will find that those who do not believe are damned throughout Scripture.

Acts 2:37-41: “When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


The Greek (eis) in this passage which most translate as for the forgiveness of sins is better translated as "because of" or "in accordance with" signifying that forgiveness would come before baptism.3 This passage is also thought to be a command towards the Jews whose baptism was necessary for the restoration of Israel. Even if it does apply to everyone it still states that the ones who accepted his message were baptized, it's the acceptance of the Word of God that brings salvation.



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1: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 20:31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2:Isaiah 43:1-3 But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze. For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead.

Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

John 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 10:27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

John 5:11-13 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' "So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?" The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

3: Eis.

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