I just read an article on "Buddhist channel" www.buddhistchannel.tv concerning an ordination of two women as fully ordained nuns. This ordination was done by Ajahn Brahm at Bodhinyana Buddhist Monastery in Perth, Western Australia. http://www.bodhinyana.org.au/


The line of fully ordained nuns in the Theravada tradition died out. At some point in time no new women wanted to be ordained in this tradition and so the ordination line died. Since it takes a fully ordained nun to ordain a fully ordained nun, and none existed, it was ruled "extinct" In Thailand by order of the Thai surpreme council and his majesty King Rama 9 its against the law to ordain a women. I am not sure what the punishments are exactly.

One of the punishments is excommunication from Thai sangha including the Thai forest tradition. Which is exactly what happened Ajahn Brahm was excommunicated.

This took a lot of courage for him to do So if you support his actions of ordaining women back into status equal to monks then you may want to write him a letter sharing your support.

-----------------> In my opinion I think this was a very noble thing he did.

The law and tradition of not ordaining women I do not beleive comes from the Buddha According to the principles laid down by the Buddha in the Pali canon woman can, and should if they want to be, fully ordained.

A few monks including Bikkhu Bodhi here in the United States argue that fully ordained nuns still exist. They exist as Zen nuns, And Tibetan Nuns. What tradition a person is becomes more superficial against the back drop of the Buddha’s principles and teachings.

I support Ajahn Brahm and others like him.

I am curious as to what you think on this issue?

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Dhammasara

Beginnings to Now

Dhammasara Nun’s Monastery was established by the Buddhist Society of Western Australia in 1998. We are primarily a training monastery for nuns in the Forest Tradition of Theravada Buddhism. The monastery in 583 acres of natural bushland in the hills outside Perth, is just a 45 minute drive from the city centre.

http://www.dhammasara.org.au/


There is also a Nun’s monestery located at the Bhavana society in West Virginia. www.bhavanasociety.org

Contact
Ajahn Vayama (Abbess)
Dhammasara Nuns Monastery
203 Reen Road
Gidgegannup WA 6083
Australia

I admire what Ajahn Brahm has done and I certaintly don’t believe that the Buddha ever intended for women not to become nuns or bhikkunis.

In fact, after being confronted by Ananda did he not ordain his own stepmother as the first nun? It is obvious that the Thai ruling is simply more prejudice against women and is disgraceful in this day and age.

T&J wrote: (in part) ... -
its against the law to ordain a women. I am not sure what the punishments are exactly.

I am curious as to what you think on this issue?

Such a law makes no sense to me in the general context of my orientation to Buddhist ideas and my own practice. - I have to smile when all of these supposedly well informed and "learned" persons (Buddhist "monks") come up with such a stand and law. - So much for those who are imbued with the doctrine of the Dharma! - It makes me very suspicious of that approach to things. In a way, it reflects the "science" of the Dhamma with the "heart" of the Dhamma. - Take your choice. - We live with the choices we make.

T&J wrote:
...
The line of fully ordained nuns in the Theravada tradition died out. At some point in time no new women wanted to be ordained in this tradition and so the ordination line died. Since it takes a fully ordained nun to ordain a fully ordained nun, and none existed...
...
One of the punishments is excommunication from Thai sangha including the Thai forest tradition. Which is exactly what happened Ajahn Brahm was excommunicated.
...
...

I am curious as to what you think on this issue?

I’ve never really understood the reasoning of nun’s having to be ordained by nuns, the first nuns weren’t... and the vinaya doesn’t seem to really support this ludicrous catch 22 either. Other traditions of Buddhism with no historical bhikkhuni tradition are tripped up by the idea that nuns have to ordain nuns, but they just had woman ordain from a surviving bhikkhuni tradition and started the bhikkhuni lineage with that. From an objective stand point, it just seems like pointless red tape, and I’m glad to see some go ahead and cut through it like Ajahn Brahm did.

What I really think though... is this is a perfect example of why you need "Church" and State separation, as my reading on this from past experience, is it has less to do with what the Thai forest tradition wants, but more about what the Thai royalty dictates should happen. I hope this becomes a flash point issue that finally causes Buddhist traditions in Thailand to stop allowing the State (royal family) to enforce their own misguided notions about Buddhism onto Buddhism. Not that it is the fault of the royalty entirely, as it seems monastic orders in Thailand are more concerned with losing the favor of the state than they are with removing the problems that come with totalitarian meddling in Buddhist affairs.

I had an idea... currently there is a movement in Thailand to make it so you can get a sex change and legally become a woman. If that ever goes through, they should get eight monks to volunteer to do this, and then they can start ordaining women.

Garyszone wrote:

T&J wrote: (in part) ... -

its against the law to ordain a women. I am not sure what the punishments are exactly.



I am curious as to what you think on this issue?

Such a law makes no sense to me in the general context of my orientation to Buddhist ideas and my own practice. - I have to smile when all of these supposedly well informed and "learned" persons (Buddhist "monks") come up with such a stand and law. - So much for those who are imbued with the doctrine of the Dharma! - It makes me very suspicious of that approach to things. In a way, it reflects the "science" of the Dhamma with the "heart" of the Dhamma. - Take your choice. - We live with the choices we make.

I think you indirectly made a really great point, which is this kind of lunacy discredits Buddhism to outsiders and gives entirely the wrong impressions of it. Like it does make it seem there is some monastic law against men ordaining women, when really there is no such thing.

As far as "learned" persons (Buddhist "monks"), it’s them that are ordaining the women. It’s the uneducated men with connections to the State that are putting up road blocks, and they don’t base this on anything in Buddhism, but from their own cultural prejudices. Even if buddhism was dogmatic about its doctrine, there is no doctrinal reason to block the ordination of women. The law was imposed by political authority, not for any particular "buddhist" reasons. It’s kind of like how the Queen is the head of the Church of England, except that the Thai royalty still like to dabble in buddhist affairs.

By the way, I’m not defending this incestuous relationship by any means, I’ve talked to a couple forest monks who are entirely frustrated by this relationship the royalty has with Buddhism, and its undeserved influence. It can seem nice to have powerful friends, until they start exercising that power over you.

Been wrote: (in part) -
Even if buddhism was dogmatic about its doctrine, there is no doctrinal reason to block the ordination of women.

First, i appreciate what seems to be your (own, personal) general feeling and thought: i.e., that not allowing the ordination of women is not a good (acceptable to you) idea. - Then: to follow up on what you mentioned, the OP indicated action by "some bunch" of monks (not Royalty). - It leads one to believe that they are acting on their "view" (understanding, interpretation of) the Buddhist "doctrine" (Dhamma). - THat is, THEY would say (claim) that it IS (has) a doctrinal basis. - (As they view it.) - This is one slice of the pie that reveals my great sensitivity to "doctrinal" claims (etc, etc.) - (Insisting that one retain the "right" (authority) to make such judgments independently of such doctrine. - At no time should my reservations indicate an hostility towards the "sayings about" or interpretations regarding various Buddhist doctrinal "excerpts" or quotations, etc. - Some of my best friends are the ideas and feelings i’ve garnished from reading about Buddhism (and its various interpretations). - But i have never (and never will) swallow anything just because it is claimed to be "sacred" within the context of Buddhist doctrine. (etc., etc.) - Now, we are back to the island. - Someone else might suggest, "Just close your eyes and twiddle your thumbs." - So? - Sometimes, i choose not to do that.

Garyszone wrote:

Been wrote: (in part) -

Even if buddhism was dogmatic about its doctrine, there is no doctrinal reason to block the ordination of women.

...
Then: to follow up on what you mentioned, the OP indicated action by "some bunch" of monks (not Royalty).
...

"it was ruled ’extinct’ In Thailand by order of the Thai supreme council and his majesty King Rama 9"

The King of Thailand is the supreme head of Thai Buddhism. Much the same as the British queen is the head of the church of England. As far as I was told the King of Thailand does not except or aknowlege higher ordination to women.


I asked my wife and she seemed to think the King was ok with higher ordination to women. Thailand does have a great deal of religious freedoms, and I have seen just about every religious group in Thailand. Most Thais are accepting of many different religious groups. The only Thai’s that seemed ideologically agressive were Islamic.

I maybe wrong about the monarchy but from the monastic sources I inquired with the Kings policy was not in favor of women monks.


I will write another letter to my mentors, and see what they say.