What did you do this week to help get real health care reform passed by Congress? I’m talking about the Public Option or, (better) single payer. Personally I wrote both my senators and my congressman (actually, I’ve been writing them over and over on this since Obama took office). My congressman, Mike Thomson is a blue dog, but my senators (Feinstein and Boxer) seem to be on board. We don’t have tea-baggers, birthers, or other wing-nuts here abouts (that are active anyway), so the town hall meeting we had here a week or so back wasn’t very eventful.

So, what are you doing?

Mostly I’m trying to keep from being assaulted by the present administration for saying anything that might mildly be construed as negative.

http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LmZveG5ld3MuY29tL3BvbGl0aWNzLzIwMDkvMDkvMjQvaG91c2UtcmVwdWJsaWNhbnMtaGVhcmluZy1oZWFsdGgtaW5zdXJhbmNlLWNvbXBhbnktZ2FnLW9yZGVyLw

attempts at stiffling dissenting views

In the future, when you’re going to post a big link like that, copy it first, then go over to http://...com where you can turn that 166 character url into something more usable, like this: http://...com/yax9q3f

Just a suggestion.

Moderator business out of the way, I can now comment on the content of the url itself:

Fox News? You sent a link to Fox News????? Faux News, or Fixed News, or -- let’s just tell it like it is: Fox News just tells LIES! LIES, LIES and more LIES! They have no sense of reality at all. They can’t even get the differences between Facism and Socialism straight and they just make up stuff.

Now, send me a something from a source I and most other Druids trust:

MSNBC, Free Speech TV, even CNN (most of the time), then I will happily read.

sorry about the link, it did not copy correctly.

Fox news is absolutely no different than any other source, CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, BBC, etc. All their stories carry equal amounts of veracity. Of course I could have quoted the Congressional Record for the same information about the government threatening insurance companies who sent informational pamplets to Medicare recipients but that cost money.

KelticShaman wrote:


Fox news is absolutely no different than any other source, CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, BBC, etc. All their stories carry equal amounts of veracity. Of course I could have quoted the Congressional Record for the same information about the government threatening insurance companies who sent informational pamplets to Medicare recipients but that cost money.

There is an investigation of Humana (that would be an insurance company (singular) rather than insurance companies (plural)) because it is not appropriate for a government contractor to use lists of of the Medicare recipients it is serving to send out propaganda to scare old people.

Which universe do you live in? Faux News has been caught in lies time and time again. A recent example: The 9/12 march on Washington. Faux reported 7 million people participated, but the reality is only about 70 k were there, based on official estimates.

Then there are the organizations who participated in the march. Fixed News reports them all as grass roots, patriotic groups, yet reliable sources tell us that almost all of them were bankrolled by Insurance Companies, and other interests that have a stake in making sure that Health care remains a profit making venture here.

I especially enjoyed the video of a Faux News producer working the crowd to get them all reved up for the cameras. Nothing like being "fair and impartial" is there?

"The Daily Show" is much more credible than Fox News, and they at least admit to being a "fake news show."

Fox reported that there were "death panels." There are none (except for the private insurance company death panels that really do sentence people to death by refusing to pay for life saving procedures).
Fox reported that veterans will loose their benefits. A Lie.
Fox reported that our President was really born in Kenya. A Lie.

Practically everything Fox has reported about Health Care has been, if not a lie, a half-truth.

The "tea baggers" aren’t even real. Most of them are shills, bought and paid for by the Insurance Companies, shipped in to town hall meetings from outside state lines to badger and bully Democratic Congressmen ( I believe they should have been checking IDs at the door, and no one allowed in who wasn’t a resident of the Congressmans district. I also believe that those stupid inbreds that showed up at the Presidents appearances with guns should have been carted off to Gitmo - and under Bush they would have!).

The latest polls show that 65%
of Americans want the Public Option .

The polls go up and down. This summer the numbers were decidedly against the "public option" (socialized medicine). When viewed in historical context we know what the government’s record on managing a health care system is like:

By Michael Coonan
100% Service Connected Disabled Veteran
Corpsman, 1st Platoon, Alpha Co, 1/9, 3rd Marine Division 1967/68

COMMON PROBLEMS EXPERIENCED BY VETERANS AT VA HEALTH CLINICS

The following is not an exhaustive list of problems with the VA health care system. Other veterans could surely add their experiences to more accurately reflect the scope of the problems in the VA health care system. The veteran receiving health care from the VA health care system does not have specific lists of “Patients Rights” relating access to care and a mechanism for enforcing these rights.

1) Access to specialty health care services beyond the VA’s primary physician is frequently delayed and/or denied. VA administrators frequently stonewall the veteran as he/she requests answers regarding access to health care questions.

2) There are limited or no appeal rights when the veterans are denied treatment, or the treatment has lengthy delays before receipt.

3) The VA’s Fees Basis system and the VA’s Clinical Manager system operate in the dark without any accountability to the veterans seeking health care.

4) Veteran Administration health care administrators and Veteran Administration clinical managers rarely (if ever) respond to questions or issues raised by veterans seeking health care.

5) The Veterans Administration health clinic’s P & T Committee is charged with making life and death treatment decisions about health care for veterans. This committee is not held accountable for their actions. This committee does not have minutes for these meetings, where vital decisions are made regarding access to treatment for veterans.

6) The Veterans Administration’s health care system is overly complicated and not well understood by veterans or the public. Therefore, veterans, and those caring for them, do not know how to deal with the VA system as they struggle to get health care.

7) The Veterans Administration’s “Patient Advocate” position is not able to function as an effective, independent, advocate for veterans, because the “Advocate” works directly under the authority of the VA’s health clinic/hospital administrator. This organizational arrangement reduces the “Advocate” to functioning much like a “toothless eunuch” as they seek to advocate for Veterans. The title “Patient Advocate” is a misnomer.

A) When the Veterans Administration’s Patient Advocate represents the rights of a veteran effectively, the advocate risks losing his or her job because the nature of advocacy is to “rock the boat”.

B) The VA administration “Patient Advocate” cannot make the problems they find with the VA health care system public. This limits the “Advocate’s” usefulness in becoming a positive change agent to correct problems in the VA’s health care system. Consequently, serious problems in the VA health system are buried in the bureaucracy, with no chance for public discussion and/or reform. Because of the inertia of the current system, VA management and clinical staff who are incompetent, neglectful and indifferent to the plight of the Veterans are able to hide in plain sight in the self-protecting VA health care bureaucracy.

And there is the cost. the only way Socialized Medicine will work in any country is to raise taxes. Consequently income and other taxes (consider European VAT) rise significantly to pay for medical care that is, by its very nature, driven to mediocrity. Health care reform is definitely needed in the US but Socialized Medicine is not the answer.

The bottom line contains contradictions that have yet to be overcome.

People want a government run plan for the uninsured but they do not want to pay for it.

People in the US will not tolerate socialism but they want a guaranteed "safety net."

People want economy iof scale in medical institutions but do not want mega-corporations running hospitals.

People want minimum standards of care but will not tolerate federal government interference.

Polls being conducted now are meaningless because of the wording used. For example, when the phrase "public option" is teamed with the phrase "like Medicare" the public poll for goes up. When the "public option" phrase is used alone the numbers dive.

The devil is in the details and the details create a quagmire that must be traversed carefully to avoid the socialized medicine nightmares of Canada and the UK. The government health care industry in the UK employees so many people it has become a formidible voting block that prevents its own overhaul if it means increasing workload, reducing costs, and cutting back overstaffed positions. The rest of Britain cannot overcome the block to vote in health care reform; choice is eliminated for the public.

Most of your arguments have been dis proven by actual testimony from people who
use the systems. I have friends who use the VA system. Some are veterans from
the Viet Nam War, and others are recent veterans from the current disgrace. Every
one of them is happy with the quality of care they get from the VA. The only complaint
I hear from any of them is that in some areas, the closest VA facility is more
than a days drive away, sometimes many days. Other than that, not one complaint
except that the couple of guys who served in Europe say we could do a lot better
here.

I have many elderly relatives who have Medicare and love it. Two of those are
retired RNs. My uncle needed an emergency bypass last year, and he needed it
fast. Medicare was on it.

Then there is "socialized medicine" as it exists in England, Canada,
Israel, and the Scandinavian Countries. Being the head of an International
Order, I have member-Druids I serve in all these places (and relatives in
Canada and Israel). Here’s what they all report: there are no lines, no delays,
you pick your own doctor, and no denials of care. Emergency rooms in Canada
are, unlike here, used for emergencies. Very short - no more than 10 minute
- waits.

In the US 122 people die from lack of health care insurance every day.

We have the highest infant mortality rate in the world.

I can go on.......

And yes, "Medicare for All"
is exactly what people are thinking when they are polled on the public option,
and it’s exactly what we should expect. It’s also the most practical system,
since it would only take a slight tweaking, and a little more funding, of the
present Medicare system to expand it to everyone. Of course we’d have to throw
Aetna and Humana and Cigna and AIG under the bus. SO BE IT! They have stolen
from us long enough.

Only far right wing conservative Republicans and Libertarians "don’t
want to pay for other peoples health care." But they don’t want to
pay for anything, as they say, "they aren’t using themselves." They
don’t want to pay for schools, or roads, or public libraries, or parks or (fill
in the blank). They would privatize the Police, the FIre Dept., FEMA, Prisons,
County Jails -- well practically everything but the military.

They are tiny minority. A loud, obnoxious and sometimes, insane, minority,
but a minority nonetheless. BUT they are well funded, and can purchase the illusion
of being larger than they are. But they might win. The Insurance Companies,
Pharma, and these right-wing nut jobs have enough funding to purchase members
of Congress. They own the Repulitarians. They own a handful of Democrats.

On the other hand, 53% of voters have voted for "socialised medicine."
They voted for it when they voted for President Obama. They voted for it when
they sent Congress a Democratic majority. I voted for Obama, and I’m not even
a Democrat (I’m a Green). In other
words: WE WON! The Conservatives and Libertarians have had their time, some
19 years of the last few decades (8 more if you count Clinton). This is our
time now! FDR has resurected! The New Deal is back baby! You call it "socialism?"
Fine, but you better get used to it.

I believe that by placing a magickal imperitive on getting the Public Option
passed. we Druids can see the true will of the people enacted. Eventually. The
Druids of the Order of the Mithril Star,
and most of the members of the Reformed
Druids of Gaia, are dedicated magickally to bringing about real democracy
on earth. In the case of the OMS, we are actually Pledged
to this.

-SO SAY WE ALL!

For every veteran you produce saying they are satisfied with the Veterans Administration’s health care system I can produce two who tell horror stories. Even their flagship hospital, Walter Reed is a nightmare.

I suggest you check out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/walter-reed/index.html (hardly a conservative rag)

Of course your friends in other countries are satisfied with socialized medicine, they are your friends because they share th same socialist beliefs. For every glowing report of something positive in one of these systems I can show you 10 horror stories. Your comments about the speed of Canada’s system are laughable as Canadians flock to Florida because the wait for treatment is so bad in Canada, in some cases prolonging severe pain and risking death.

No, we need a revision of the American health care system and laws to prevent abuses by insurance companies but we do not need to create the Amerika Socialized Medicine nightmare. Driving a system to mediocrity instead of allowing it to achieve excellence is a horror story we need not read.

KelticShaman wrote:
For every veteran you produce saying they are satisfied with the Veterans Administration’s health care system I can produce two who tell horror stories. Even their flagship hospital, Walter Reed is a nightmare.



I suggest you check out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/walter-reed/index.html (hardly a conservative rag)



Of course your friends in other countries are satisfied with socialized medicine, they are your friends because they share th same socialist beliefs. For every glowing report of something positive in one of these systems I can show you 10 horror stories. Your comments about the speed of Canada’s system are laughable as Canadians flock to Florida because the wait for treatment is so bad in Canada, in some cases prolonging severe pain and risking death.



No, we need a revision of the American health care system and laws to prevent abuses by insurance companies but we do not need to create the Amerika Socialized Medicine nightmare. Driving a system to mediocrity instead of allowing it to achieve excellence is a horror story we need not read.

My "socialist" friends are all Druids (and they think as Druids think). No system is perfect of course, but the horror stories you have heard are propaganda. You heard them from Fox right?

Walter Reed - a horror story indeed, but two years old, and the Bush administration reacted to the outcry about it and allocated more funds to fix things up.

It sounds like you spend all your time watching Fox, listening to Limbaugh, reading World Net Daily, and believing in conspiracy theories.

Like I mentioned, your view is the minority one. Your side lost last November.

What I find interesting is that 122 people each day are dying because of our system, and you think that’s ok.

Why are you so selfish? That’s really what this comes to: selfish people versus compassionate people.

So it’s ok for you that we rank 180 in infant mortality (that means 179 countries have a lower infant death rate than we do)?

It’s ok for you that in 21 other countries a lot fewer people die of AIDS?

It’s ok for you that in 102 other countries people live longer than they do here?

It’s ok for me to pay out $800 every month for health insurance that will deny me coverage if I need a bypass? Or chemo therapy?

Which corporation do you work for? Who owns you?

KelticShaman wrote:
Mostly I’m trying to keep from being assaulted by the present administration for saying anything that might mildly be construed as negative.



http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3LmZveG5ld3MuY29tL3BvbGl0aWNzLzIwMDkvMDkvMjQvaG91c2UtcmVwdWJsaWNhbnMtaGVhcmluZy1oZWFsdGgtaW5zdXJhbmNlLWNvbXBhbnktZ2FnLW9yZGVyLw



attempts at stiffling dissenting views

I’m sorry, but you’re a moron. It’s because of people like you that I start to think that maybe the 2nd amendment was a bad idea. It’s seems only morons own guns.

Funds Spent This Year By the Health Care Lobby Would Have Insured All Those Who Died From Lack of Insurance
By: Jim White Thursday October 15, 2009 8:42 am


In an article at CNN.com, we learn how much money is being spent in an attempt to prevent real health care reform:

The health care sector has spent $263 million this year lobbying Congress for changes to reform plans, a government watchdog group estimates.

That’s a huge amount of money. How many people could purchase health insurance with that much money? According to USA Today, the average health insurance premium for an individual is $4824. Dividing $263 million by $4824 tells us that 54, 500 individuals could have purchased health insurance with the funds spent by the health care sector in their lobbying effort this year.

Last month, we learned that 45, 000 people a year die in the US due to lack of health insurance. Think about that for just a minute. The amount of money being spent in an attempt to prevent health care reform is more than enough to purchase insurance for all of those who die due to lack of coverage. Of course, we can’t predict ahead of time which of the 46 million uninsured Americans will be the ones to die from this lack of coverage, but the equivalence of the lobbying funds spent with what it would cost to cover those who die is still a striking example of the priorities of those who want to protect their obscene profit stream.

There’s one more little gem in the CNN article:

“It is sort of a Super Bowl of lobbying for health care reform. The lobbyists are winning so far. But the game’s not over yet, ” said Rep. Jim Cooper, D-Tennessee.

Given Cooper’s strong financial ties to the health care industry, his central role in defeating health care reform during the Clinton administration and his efforts today to prevent the public option being enacted, it’s very strange CNN would quote him about the lobbying expenses, unless it is to allow him remind the industry that he wants another upgrade for his “Super Bowl” ticket. However, if Accountability Now is successful, as Jane Hamsher tells us, Cooper may find himself benched for choosing the wrong team.