Did he always know that Siona (or the arrival of the being Siona was) would signify his part of the Golden Paths end?

Leto II often said that while he was alive, he had no fore knowledge of when he was going to die yet I cannot help but have the feeling that while he may not have known the exact time he was aware of certain occurrences that would lead to the time when his physical body would experience death, and I think that his verification that the Ixian “No-Room” technology was in full operating effect was a major one.

The end of Leto II’s interrogation of Malky still confuses me a little. In the end Leto makes Moneo promise him not to reveal to anyone that he (Leto) could not kill Malky himself nor could he order Moneo to kill him. Is it because Leto did not want to have any direct dealing with Malky’s death so he could have a free conscience IF Hwi Noree ever asked him if he knew what happened to Malky? Leto already knew that Hwi possessed no Truthsense, and had no idea if her Uncle Malky was even still alive. Certainly the Ixians would known that Leto had been involved with Malky’s abduction from the No-Room and that the secret project was blown. So what was the reason for the promise?

Anyway, getting back to Leto’s fore knowledge of his death, immediately after his interview with Malky Leto has thoughts of death and how it would be to plunge off the balcony of the Citadel. He knows that it CANNOT be the way he dies because there’s no water at the base of the tower, but that doesn’t stop him from considering that it could have been one way his physical body could have met its end.

Which brings us to the Royal Marriage and Leto’s decision to change venues to Tuono. The dangers are crystal clear. Moneo picks up on everything and tries to warn Leto away from the new plans, but Leto cuts him off and insists on it. Moneo fears for Leo’s safety when concerning his own daughter Siona. Again, Moneo senses the obvious danger his daughter poses for Leto, and again Leto dismisses him. Moneo sees the dark mood Leto falls into on route to Tuono and can sense both danger and a profound sense that something very important is about to happen.

Do you think that Leto knew that his part of the Golden Path was about to end? Even at the point of potentially having a brighter future with Hwi ahead of him and the possibility of some small measure of relief from the isolation and lonliness he had to endure for all that time at his fingertips, did he know that all of that potential for the “new” was about to be denied him?

Leto knew that going to Dune was a trap set to destroy him and his house, so it may have been possible he saw his own death too. I think that besides what Paul’s mother gave him his father may have had some mental abilities too and he could see what was going to happen. I don’t know how far this would have gone. Would he have known that the doctor was going to do it I don’t know. He may have thought this will put the House of Attrides into Paul’s hand and with his abilities coming from Jessica and himself over millenia he would defeat the Harkons. I am rusty on some of the spelling I an using abbreviations. So I think this is a good way to think and to think of when the book is read. I have been busy with some personal things I got a little rusty on the original book. I have every one of Frank Herbert’s books and also some of the other books written in the prequils.

Maybe it was more of a passive suicide. think about how much pain it caused him to love the "gentle Hwi" and yet be so far removed the the human species that it is all he could ever do.I think he saw that she was actually a threat to the golden path because of that love for her. He couldnt have her killed out right and still go on so they would have to go together and the sudden change of wedding location gave all the pieces in play a chance to end it the way it did. all the parts were there, the water, Siona, Idaho, and the only fish speaker in Siona’s comand that just happen to have a lasgun and ordered by "GOD" to obey Siona in all things. Not unlike that way Leto couldnt bring himself to kill Malky, he couldnt bring himself to kill himself and hwi. I mean seriously look at the end of children of dune Leto II has been suicidal from the begining, when he would beg Ghanima to help him die after running. ANYWAY this is my 2 cents worth.

Zensunni wrote:
Maybe it was more of a passive suicide. think about how much pain it caused him to love the "gentle Hwi" and yet be so far removed the the human species that it is all he could ever do.I think he saw that she was actually a threat to the golden path because of that love for her. He couldnt have her killed out right and still go on so they would have to go together and the sudden change of wedding location gave all the pieces in play a chance to end it the way it did. all the parts were there, the water, Siona, Idaho, and the only fish speaker in Siona’s comand that just happen to have a lasgun and ordered by "GOD" to obey Siona in all things. Not unlike that way Leto couldnt bring himself to kill Malky, he couldnt bring himself to kill himself and hwi. I mean seriously look at the end of children of dune Leto II has been suicidal from the begining, when he would beg Ghanima to help him die after running. ANYWAY this is my 2 cents worth.

I must be real rusty. My life has been busy with a number of crises in my life the summer until today. I haven’t gotten into the original book in over 2 years. I want to know who Hwi is. I think that I like any book where humans fight intelligent machines. So I like the prequels that Herbert and Anderson wrote. I think that, my opinion only, no one can imitate what was achieved in the original book. The reason I first feel in love with Dune was I was interested in the powers of the mind like Paul Attrides had. I believe many of us have those powers in some way. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a breeding program was started with people that exhibit those powers in some way. We may not have to wait a long time to have people lifted up into a higher realm. Well that is my two cents worth to.

lord Nic is talking about Leto II in this post not pauls father, Hwi is the female clone of Malky, and the female Leto II is going to marry when Siona And Duncan ambush them and send Leto II plunging into the Idaho River.

Zen is right, I am referring to Leto II, the God Emporer DUKE Leto Atreides biological Grandfather.

As far as the DUKE Leto the FIRST "Leto" of the Atreides, I believe he was a man that had no illusions of what he was getting himself into when he carried out the Emporer Shaddam IV orders and took over the Arrakis feif from the Harkonnen’s. He was a strong intelligent man with the deeply grounded sense of morality his family (the Atreides) had become renowned for. Because of this, I believe that while he was NOT suicidal Duke Leto knew in his heart of hearts that he was in grave danger and that he would probably not survive the dilemma he had been forced into by the Emperor.

The Duke Leto had never shown any signs of having the Prescient talents his family had become famous for, but being an Atreides the potential that he had some ability to sense his own surmise is still a possibility. The Bene Gesserit had foreseen it, and I know that many within the spacing guild had also prior to his death on Arrakis.

I got the distinct feeling that Leto felt a sense of his impending death through his actions before taking over Arrakis. He wasn’t sleeping. He was pushing himself to prepare for as many dangers to his person as possible and acted like a man on borrowed time. These feelings and thoughts can be clearly seen in his conversations with Paul and Jessica in particular. For the Duke to even consider taking the family Atomics and declaring House Atreides Renegade is proof enough of that.

Sorry gentlemen, but Leto II as a 8 year old already saw his death while looking over a cliff at Seech Tabr. Remember when he tells Stil "I’m looking down the place where one of my deaths will happen"!
Sure nuff.....his falling near Tabr was already in Leto’s future with the last spice hoard was hidden nearby at Tabr.
It’s been awhile, but that’s my take on Leto II death.

I beg to differ. Leto II told Stilgar that the had a seen a path thru the future where he MAY die at Tabr, not that he WOULD die there. He also saw 2 other paths through the future; one where he would kill Jessica with a knife, and one where he would marry Ghanima in order to consolidate power to the Atreides.
The LAST vision is the path Leto II took.

Also, in Leto’s death vision he would die while his sister was still alive as well as his Aunt Alia. That’s why he tells Stilgar "IF I die here Stil, you must beware Alia".

Leto II may have had a vision of his death at Tabr when he was *, but it was NOT a vision of his death as God Emporer.

Oh, and perhaps most importantly Leto II died at Tuono, NOT Tabr. :-)

Hereitics of dune; page 251

Abrupt revelation locked Odrade’s mind. She understood the warning. The Tyrant
had died at a place of his own choosing. Many deaths had left their imprint on
that place but his the greatest. The Tyrant chose his peregrination route with
purpose. Sheeana had not told her worm to go there. It moved that way of its
own volition. The magnet of the Tyrant’s endless dream drew it back to the
place where the dream began.

Good quote Zen, I guess that puts that question to rest.