For a moment lets set aside the notion that the passing of moments is just an illusion. This idea is pondered on by philosophers all the time but take a brief moment and concentrate on the idea of timelessness. Much like contemplating nothingness the mere thought of the word betrays the exercise. Many say this can be contemplated through emptying the mind through meditation. But I feel that words such as nothingness or timelessness are just approximations of an experiance that can't really be communicated and only experianced. No matter what fraction of time you use any moment no matter how small can be labeled with a number. The next step is to visualize a line where you place these numbers one after another. Choose a moment in time. Now will suffice. Now is labeled as zero. Next minute, hour or whatever is 1 then 2 and so on into infinite. When looking ahead this concept of infinite comes quite easy. I mean how could time just end. Like numbers you could always add continuously. Bring back the image of time as a line now. You have zero and all the positives into infinite. Now add negative numbers to represent the past. Strange how it goes backwards into infinite as well. So what number do you now add to get to zero. Infinite? Well you've just gone past zero by well.... infinite. Any other number gets eaten up by the vastness of eternity. Under this model of linear time the moment you are experiancing right now is impossible. There has to only be zero onto infinite and no negatives on this timeline. Now what does this mean? Well it means that timelessness is a reality and is zero the beginning of our time line. Now I realise that I'm kind of contradicting myself but my statement at the beginning of the article was necessary for the right mind set. This zero the beginning of the timeline can be related to the top of the tree of life in kaballah that is the Ain, Ain Soph, Ain Soph Aur. That is of course if my comprehension of the tree of life is correct. Which is probably quite off but I try. :) So basically in this model time is a creation and not at the base of the universe and one could infer a god or gods as a reality.

Or how about we keep this number "negative infinite". The only way to actually incorporate it is to bend this line so it now forms a circle or that nifty infinite sign that we use. Or that snake eating it's tail symbol. I forget what it's called.
This model can be related to the idea of the universe contracting after expanding to a point and then exploding once again in a big bang. But this model suggests determinism and I just don't want to think we are doomed to repeat our same lives over and over again endlessly. Some though suggest that deja vu is the sudden knowlege of this circle and that you have indeed experianced that moment before. An infinite amount of times to be exact. But the thought that people who led miserable lives that led up to a gruesome death have to experiance that over and over would make me want to break the universe somehow. Maybe that's Apocalypse from the X-men wanted to destroy the universe so badly? He always seemed to try and get across that he was really a good guy and oblivion is for best everyone if they just knew what he knew. Best villain ever!! But I digress.

Things may well repeat in an infinite circle ... and the experiences may be the same even as we are surrounded by different friends , different lovers , different layers of our selves .....

But even as the moment comes back again and you recognize you are on the same path you have always been -

You still may have a choice - and your choice may change the course of this path .... and that may be what the universe is waiting for ... for just one , and in the one entity , all of us - to exercise choice - to take a step in a different direction against all the forces that were said to hold us back ....

Fear , Gravity , hope , expectation , habit - even in the midst of all these - we may still have a choice - and if you are aware of the patterns , you begin to see where the choices are possible.

Choose freedom.

Time is not real. Simple relativity theory quickly tells us that. It's our mind that filters a non-linear probabilistic universe into a manageable stream that we call concrete linear reality.

Isn't it funny how we base what we know as 'true' or 'false' on what we have accepted as true in the past ..... i mean , this thread just gives us an example - science ..... people will say , ah yes - this is true , and look science is starting to verify it or science has proven this false .... but look closer ... science by nature has been built up with the blocks of belief - it is an art that is practiced by first believing certain things ... if you pull those lower blocks out , the whole thing crumbles ...

as it is falling what do you see? ideas passing by faster than we can grasp them .... same as it has ever been ... but now we feel we are supposed to be able to contain them all ... let go , just let go , that too is an illusion , that we could somehow stop this constant motion and stamp our 'true' or 'untrue' on it's waves.

I really like to turn to the aboriginals, as well as the mayans as a living example. This dreamtime in which they lived proves to me the universal connection of all things. Nothing within the realms of time is insurmountable. These illusions, limitations, precepts exist only in the mind. Osho really helped me out on my division of intellect and intelligence. I was aware of the intrinsic intelligence that exists in each individual. I was a little stuck on the predominance of it not being utilized in the majority. I have this habit of creating separations. Osho is very theraputic for this habit of mine. Within the idiot lives the genius and within the genius lives the idiot. And then there is the one who lives in neither houses. This is the meditative man. When there is no mind there is only pure consciousness and this is the eternal aspect. This is where the illusion stops.

Time is the mind's toll,
The price we pay for sanity.

Abraxus Wrote:
Isn't it funny how we base what we know as 'true' or 'false' on what we have accepted as true in the past ..... i mean , this thread just gives us an example - science ..... people will say , ah yes - this is true , and look science is starting to verify it or science has proven this false .... but look closer ... science by nature has been built up with the blocks of belief - it is an art that is practiced by first believing certain things ... if you pull those lower blocks out , the whole thing crumbles ...



as it is falling what do you see? ideas passing by faster than we can grasp them .... same as it has ever been ... but now we feel we are supposed to be able to contain them all ... let go , just let go , that too is an illusion , that we could somehow stop this constant motion and stamp our 'true' or 'untrue' on it's waves.

In defense of science:
I sincerely don't want to sound antagonistic, and you may just be making a poetic observation moving mind towards mindlessness (the good kind!), but it seems somewhat odd to be making the above statements while your simple sentences and thoughts are just as much based on a foundation of "beliefs" as science is (really, ABSENCE of words would better reflect what you're trying to say).

Granted, science BY NATURE is often a reductionistic, anthropocentric methodology, but overall, it has been HIGHLY successful within our finite, concensus reality. SO successful in fact, that it's constantly undergoing self-revision. Science is now moving more towards studying processes, networks, cosmological origins, non-locality, non-linearity and even consciousness itself... all areas of study that push the mind towards better visulization of additional realities. It's a valuable tool that can be used... or... set aside for other levels of awareness.

Unless you subscribe to one of those mystical paths that advocates renouncement of the material-illusory world, science remains just as holy as any mystical path. It aids in better understanding of the "solid" concensus world. I don't favor the crowning of "scientific awareness" OR a more "trancendental awareness" as more "correct" or more "holy". Certain modes of perception are more useful in different levels of existence and awareness. None are the only TRUTH, though none are incorrect. I favor integration of all modes of awareness; experience of them all; respect of them all. I think ordinal thinking (placing trancendental awareness as better than all other forms of awareness) is a naive, immature, and misguided approach to spirituality. We all still exist in this level of reality as well.

Those who are naive in regards to science are naive in some sense to the beautiful complexity and process of our physical world... a cognitive understanding that often blends into BEAUTIFUL, fluid, fractal-like expressions that mimic the more direct knowledge attained through higher, thoughtless levels of consciousness. It's something you're truly missing if you've abandoned science as something conflictive to spirituality. It's a conflictive duality you've created yourself. Move towards higher levels of knowing from BOTH directions - through pure consciousness AND cognitive means - it's a much richer experience.

Hey Abraxus,
I bet you're scratching his head saying "why did that guy freak out?! I was just trying to make a comment on our constant attempts to 'define' things..."

Hehe, basically I went off based on my own issues with the subject... but, it was fun and I hope you guys enjoyed it.

In retrospect, I'm a little embarrassed, because I don't think my response was appropriate to what you were getting at... I surely see what you're saying, and you're not really discounting science...

You didn't freak out ..... no worries - it is an open dialog and people are allowed to get passionate - even if you feel different later , there is value in expressing your feelings or thoughts on something in the moment.

No , I wasn't discounting science - in fact , to understand my post , you would have to know that I have allowed reason and intellect too much time at the wheel , at the expense of emotion and intuition - so , in my world , I need to seek the balance of questioning that paradigm -

Any set of beliefs or organization is just a tool for those who need it to use. But when you recognize personally that you are overly focused on one tool or another , it can help to re-evaluate .......

Am I using the right tool for the job ?? Seems like a simple question until you open that pandoras box and all of the suddden , you realize you have no ideas what the job even is.

here here!!

Every belief we have carries its own emotion. It's the emotion behind the belief that magnetically attracts. A belief is a thought, and thought creates emotion. Beliefs make up our subconscious. Whatever we believe, we live. Whatever we believe, we repel. Beliefs create our reality. If we believe a thing, the effect will follow, no matter what. If we believe a thing, we will experience what we believe. Until we control our beliefs they will control us.

If their is time how could an enlightened master help millions of people on a consistet basis. He would have to be in millions of places at the same time. How many pray to Christ in a day and the many others who help humanity. Could this be possible if their was time. I do believe the rules change dependig on where I put my attention = power. For instance I can't suddenly physically appear 2344 BC. But mabey I could dream myself there. hehe.

Question, would you consider dreaming yourself their real?

Well it would be as real in the moment as anything else seems to be ... so how could one determine whether it was any more or less real than something that happens during the day ....

If you talk to other dreamers during the dream , they will also confirm that it is real ....