Is there any?

Posted by Simon Miller on Feb 13

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There's no such thing as an Irish Scot.

GunSrac Posted on May 7

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Although weren't the Scots originally Irish? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti

Simon Miller Posted on May 7

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Even that belief's being challenged -- Ewan Campbell of Glasgow Uni reckons that there's no archaeological evidence to support this (Were the Scots Irish? Antiquity 75:88, 2001).

And of course we don't use the term "Scot" these days to refer to someone of Gaelic genetic heritage anyway -- Strathclyde Britons, Lothian Anglo-Saxons, East Coast Picts and Norsemen from Orkney, Shetland, Sutherland and na h-Innse Gall are all generally regarded as Scots now.

GunSrac Posted on May 7

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Interesting - and the celts seem to have been Spanish... http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article1621766.ece

Simon Miller Posted on May 8

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Well, that's the peninsular Celtic theory* proven then.

It's interesting that the way the article suggests this is a radical new theory -- "People of Celtic ancestry were thought to have descended from tribes of central Europe." Errrrm... really? I was always told that we were from Iberia. In fact, the Milesian cycle of Gaelic mythology is often associated with Spain. Which makes me want to slap that man. Oisin was part of latter-day Gaelic mythology, not long pre-Christian. Why did this guy name the Celtic "clan" Oisin, when Milesius/Golamh was the name folklore associates with this settlement?


*(The peninsular theory posited that the split between the Goidelic (Gaelic, Irish, Manx) and Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, Breton) happened in the UK, and wasn't descended from the split between Gaulish and Iberoceltic.

GunSrac Posted on May 8

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I love the idea of a link between Gaels and Spaniards - which is partly behind the Spaniard and Gael story in the film. We found a Basque country Spaniard to place the role of our sailor ship-wrecked from the Spaniard Armada and was rather hoping he'd turn up with red hair to prove the genetic link!

At one point I did have him carrying a dagger made from Orichalcum, a precious red metal from which pillars in Atlantis were meant to be constructed. He had retrieved the metal dagger from the Aztecs who had inherited it in ancient history from sunken Atlantis and the story was going to establish an ancient link between the Picts and the Atlanteans through the language of the Basques (and their red hair). The story didn't quite go that way though!

Simon Miller Posted on May 8

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Hmmmm ... regardless of the diversity of Scottish ethnic origins and the complex evolution of the Celtic languages (not to mention entertaining medieval Irish fables of Spanish and Eastern Gaelic origin), the difference between a Gael and a Scot is simple: a Gael speaks Gaelic, and a Scot may or may not speak Gaelic. The vast majority of Scots do not.

Furthermore, not all Gaels are Scots. An Irish speaker is as much of a Gael as a Scottish Gaelic speaker (as GunSrac implies, there are Irish Gaels but no "Irish Scots" ... except Ulster Scots?), and so are Manx speakers, of which there are more than many people realize (though still very few). Scottish Gaels do form a distinct linguistic and cultural group within both the broader Gaelic (and Celtic) world and within Scottish society today.

This isn't a matter of ethnicity or nationality, it's a question of language, and the culture transmitted by and associated with a particular language.

'S e sin mo bharail, co-dhiubh!

Uilleam Posted on May 23

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A Gael is a Scottish or Irish Celt who speaks the language of the Gaels (gaelic). Gaelic was spoken by the Celtic peoples of the Scottish highlands, and Ireland.

A Scot is one who is descended from the ancient Gaelic speaking people who migrated from Ireland to Scotland and established the kingdom of Dalriada. Old Scottish clans such trace their ancestry back to this Irish tribe (the scots), and the early Irish Kings, specifically King Colla da Crioch who was sent into exile from Ireland in 327 AD along with 350 clan chiefs. Hence the term " Children of Colla" used by many Scottish Clans. Later on King Fergus Mor MacEarca defeated the picts in the east. In 498 AD Kenneth MacAlpine became the first King of Scotland; he was half Pict.

One who is not descended from the Irish tribe who were known as Scots technically can not refer to themselves as Scottish even if they were born in Scotland. The word Scottish I guess has come to have two meanings now 1.) the above scenario and 2.) One who was born or naturalized in Scotland.

The same goes for those who do not speak the gaelic tongue. They can not refer to themselves as Gaels.

Regarding the nonsense at the top. I don't think anyone was implying there was such a thing as an Irish Scot. It is true however that the original Scots came from Ireland contrary to biased past attempts to trace Scottish people back to Norman or Saxon ancestors. The majority of the oldest Scottish clans trace their ancestry back to Ireland including the clan Campbell (Na Caimbeulaich), clan McLaren (Clann Labhrainn), clan Macgregor (Clann Griogair) and many more.

campbellcelt5 Posted on May 24

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Campbellcelt5
" Regarding the nonsense at the top. I don't think anyone was implying there was such a thing as an Irish Scot. "

No, no-one was attempting to do such a thing. I still regard my "nonsense" as a clear and concise way of answering the original question and providing information to readers.

I disagree with your half your categorisation, though. Common usage of "Gael" means someone with Gaelic as a birth tongue, yes. The pattern these days is for you to be defined by birth or birth-tongue -- and this extends to "Scot" as well. To most people a Scot is a Scottish person by birth, not by ancestry. I can't see why you would apply inconsistent criteria to the two.

GunSrac Posted on May 28

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Regarding your comment GunSrac:

I did state above that a Scot is now classified as someone who was born or naturalized in Scotland. I just gave the official definition. The Scots were an Irish tribe, and people who were descended from this are Scots.

The world has changed. You can become a citizen of another country and refer to yourself as whatever you like ie. a Canadian, an Austrailian, a Brit, a Scot, etc based on the country you are a citizen of. Now anyone born in Scotland is called Scottish.

The true and proper definition of a Scot however is still based on ones ancestry. One who is descended from the original Scots from Ireland. That is what a Scot really is and there are plenty of them all over the world. They were not all born in Scotland, but they are still Scots. They carry the old highland names with them. They carry on the tradition: the pipes, Gaelic, Scottish fiddling, Folklore etc. They are in Austrailia, Cape Breton Nova Scotia, America, Toronto and many more places. Its ridiculous I have to be so inclusive and politically correct. It is actual fact.

I spent half my life in Cape Breton Island and the people there consider themselves Scots well before they would call themselves Canadians or the derogatory "Capers" used by people elsewhere to insult them. They were not born in Scotland, but they have Scottish blood in them through and through. They keep the culture alive. They know who they are. They are MacDonalds, Campbells, MacDougals, Frasers, etc. They play the fiddle and speak the Irish tongue.

Gaelic is the language of the celts, and as far as I am concerned I have never known anyone else to speak it so I don't get the point you are trying to make regarding a Gael being defined by birth tongue. Are you implying that say if one who is of Pakastani ancestry absurdly enough was brought up to speak Gaelic then they would be a Gael? Have I forgotten to include people who are not celts who speak Gaelic? I have never, ever, heard of that. I guess you are one then.

I didn't think I said anything incorrect. I said what a gael is. A Gael is one who speaks gaelic. The Scots, Irish, and Manx celts specifically speak gaelic. I don't know anyone who speaks Gaelic who is not of Scottish, Irish, or Celtic ancestry period.

We should just agree to disagree.

Ciorstaidh Caimbeul

campbellcelt5 Posted 16 hours ago

Cousin Campbell is correct.

I'm from the U.S. where there is much confusion concerning nationality v. ethnicity. I attempt to clarify it this way: if you are born in the U.S. you are an American by nationality, however, you are not an American by descent. If one adopted the (for lack of a better word) ethnic identity of a geographic region then all Americans would be Amerindians, which simply isn't true.

The Scots, according to my research, are the peoples who occupied the counties of Ulster and Antrim in what is now Ireland prior to 900 a.d. (and , actually after that as not all the Scots crossed the sea.) This was Dalriada and the kingdom they set up in what is now Scotland was an extension of the first, hence, the Dalriadic Scots. My research also leads me to believe that there was a cultural, if not genetic, split between the people of early Ireland so there is nothing to the claims of some Irish that the Scots are an offshoot of their culture. It may very well be the other way around.

Simply put, I was born in the U.S. but am of Scottish descent. Someone born in Scotland who is of, say, Russian stock, is Scottish by nationality. I think the suffix
'-er ' should be used for nationality. Hence, Scottisher, Irisher, Englander, etc. for those who are not Scottish, Irish, English, etc.

All attempts to deny lineage in favor of nationality are devoid of any ethno-historical significance.

C Dalzell

Dolina ha scritto:
Gaels are Scots.. but Scots aren't Gaels .. that's the difference

All the Scottish Gaels are Scots...but not all the Scots are Gaels. Nowadays.
As for the ancient times, if the Scots were not an Irish tribe etc., why do Scotland and Ireland have so much in common/close to each other (language, family names, lore, music etc.)? And why, for istance, in medieval german culture, were the Irish called Schott?
As for the Basques, there's nothing Celtic about them, nothing in their language, nothing in their features. Red hair can be found all over Europe and even in northern Africa, i believe. Therefore red hair prove nothing.
Perhaps the Gaels who settled in Ireland/Scotland came from Spain but that does not mean that they were spanish aborigines. If so, they were not Celts. I can swallow that the Scots colonised Ireland from Scotland and not the opposite way but not that the Celtic Culture started in Spain. Never heard before.
And then, what's all that fuss about Scottishness, Celticness, right of birth, ethnicity etc. We're all Jock Tamson's bairns, in the end!
Cheers!/Slàinte Mhath!

I always though Gaels were the people..ie the Irish, Scottish via the highlands, the people who once spoke and communicated in that lauage until the english made it illegal to do so. After all the "Scotland" word or scottish is gaelic, is it not meaning people from Erie.. .

I could be wrong.

Scotland was a "nation" of many cultures..it was a melting pot before the term was even thought of, it had Noris, picts, celts, saxons and probly more. The Celts spoke gaelic, and well thoughs people were from the central to northren highlands.

Then there was noris-in the north-and saxonish people in the south. Dare I say it but isn't that what the lowlands scots of today came from?

Either way these days the modern times-it doesn't much matter. My family lost it's "mother tonge" as it were in one genration. My dads, dad probly spoke and read it because the family bible is all in gaelic. He dies when my dad was young so..the talent was lost.

Mar a chanas na Gaidheil, “Cò as a tha sibh?” Se Albanaich a th’ annam a chionn gu rugadh mi ann an Alba. Chan e Gaidheil a th’ annam co-dhiugh. Tha mi ‘nam ionnsachadh na Gaidhlig.

Na beannachdan uile,
Dàidh O'Morchu

Well what a furore this has raised and after having a few strong sensations i thought id put you all right on this............ascot is a racecourse in england and a gale is a good drying wind................

Just thought I would add to mix.

The Gaels came to Ireland from the Alpine region of Gaul in western Europe during the first Century BC. The Scots, or Scoti, as they were called by the Romans, originally raided the Hebrides and western mainland of Scotland from their home in Ireland. Scoti is a Roman word which probably meant "pirates." Around the year 500, there was a "positive" migration of Scots from Ireland to Argyll. These people were known as Dal Riata, spoke Gaelic, and formed a new Kingdom, known as Dalriada. They eventually assimilated with the Picts.

kevin wrote:
Well what a furore this has raised and after having a few strong sensations i thought id put you all right on this............ascot is a racecourse in england and a gale is a good drying wind................

This is very true kevin...so true. dogh!

David ha scritto:
Just thought I would add to mix.

The Gaels came to Ireland from the Alpine region of Gaul in western Europe during the first Century BC. The Scots, or Scoti, as they were called by the Romans, originally raided the Hebrides and western mainland of Scotland from their home in Ireland. Scoti is a Roman word which probably meant "pirates." Around the year 500, there was a "positive" migration of Scots from Ireland to Argyll. These people were known as Dal Riata, spoke Gaelic, and formed a new Kingdom, known as Dalriada. They eventually assimilated with the Picts.

That makes more sense. I read that the Gaels came from northern Europe, like Belgium, though. But i like the idea that they came from the Alpine region, they might well have come from Italy, then!

Hello, Nick here, WELSH :D

i'd like to say a little bit.

About the Celts originating from Spain, is party correct, or is a theory with quite a bit of evidence.

"But what is the truth of our origins? Over to Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University, who says some 81% of the Welsh have DNA evidence which shows a common link to ancestors who came to Britain from northern Spain many thousands of years ago.
In fact, many Britons share a gene pool that can be traced back to Basque. Around three-quarters of the Welsh, Scots and English can be traced to those who arrived from the Basque country between 7, 500 and 15, 000 years ago."

to read more go on my profile and read the blog

but i find it all very interesting.
Did you know that celts spread much further than just Briton?

spain, france, italy. and more

Long may the Brythonic and Goidelic languages endure. Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic and Manx.

Cymru am byth.

tomato or tomato? This thread has been both informative AND entertaining to read. It's almost as if one is supposedly more a "pure breed" than the other. Like distinction only for distinctions sake. That's my observation from the outside looking in; however, I do understand their is an importance in knowing one's heritage. Question for the two debaters...I would like to study the history to which you refer...What are some resources I can read that are written from one point of view or the other? I would like to hear the two major theories of origin argued from each proponent. Thanks for your help and quite an interesting read from you folks.

interesting discussion everyone :)

I find it fascinating that many Scots reject an Irish link, yet the most prominent Scottish Ruling family (Bruce) actually came from FRANCE! (at least from what Ive been able to discern.) any thoughts?

ps: my stepdad is a direct descerndant of Robert the Bruce---not so sympathetically portrayed in Braveheart...

anyway, Im enjoying the discussion and I wonder if anyone can elaborate on Brian Boru's contributrion to the Irish presence in Scotland?

ACK! my mother says that recent research shows that our family (no one important fyi!) also shares a link with the *gag* Bushes and with (Lady) Diana Spencer. My step dad would just DIE if he thought he were related to the Commander in Thief....