This is the thread devoted to the debate that Dave and Lucadious have agreed to undertake after a bit of discussion in this thread. The resolution to this debate will be: "The Bible Contain Contradictions." Dave will be arguing the affirmative while Lucadious will be arguing the negative.


The rules/format for the debate are as follows:

1. This is a civil debate - there will be no insult hurling.

2. Lucadious will post an opening statement, then Dave will post his opening statement listing the first contradiction.

3. After Dave posts the contradiction Lucadious will rebut. After this rebuttal Dave will indicate whether he accepts Lucadious' rebuttal as a sufficient answer to the contradiction. If Dave does not accept the rebuttal, he must give reason for why not and Lucadious will have one more chance to make his case - after which Dave will indicate whether he agrees or disagrees and then they move on to the next contradiction which will follow the same format.

4. Unfamiliar terms will be defined upon request.

5. All sources will be cited properly.

6. All scripture from the King James Bible only (not the NKJV) in his opening statement Lucadious will explain his rational behind his choice in scriptural interpretation. Dave is free to criticize the translation when he makes his initial post for each of the contradictions - as long as it's relevant.

Before I post my contradictions I would just like it to be known that I completely reject the idea that the KJV is the very best translation of the Bible into English. However, in order to keep this debate on topic I will restrain myself from getting into it over that particular "opinion". Though, if it starts to play more of a factor in the debate itself I will not refrain from pointing out what me and many scholars feel about the King James Version of the Bible.

With that, here you go:



1) How are you suppose to treat a slave? Exodus 21:1-6, Leviticus 25: 39-46, and Deuteronomy 15:12-18.


Exodus 21:1-6:
1Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

4If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.



Leviticus 25: 39-46
39And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee; thou shalt not compel him to serve as a bondservant:

40But as an hired servant, and as a sojourner, he shall be with thee, and shall serve thee unto the year of jubile.

41And then shall he depart from thee, both he and his children with him, and shall return unto his own family, and unto the possession of his fathers shall he return.

42For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.

43Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.

44Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.



Deuteronomy 15:12-18
12And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.

13And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty:

14Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the LORD thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him.

15And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.

16And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;

17Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

18It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou sendest him away free from thee; for he hath been worth a double hired servant to thee, in serving thee six years: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all that thou doest.


Now, these laws can not be reconciled in a straightforward fashion since they represent three different notions of slavery. Look at how Exodus differentiates between the treatment of a male and female slave, but Deuteronomy insists that they should be treated similarly. Also Exodus and Deuteronomy agree that a slave who loves his master may choose to remain as a slave "for life" (Ex 21.6) or "forever" (Deut 15.17), but then Lev 25 insists that slavery does not really exist, since slaves must be treated "as hired or bound laborers" and they may only serve "until the year of jubilee" (v.40).¹


2. How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign? 2Kings 8:26, and 2Chronicles 22:2

2Kings 8:26:
26Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2Chronicles 22:2
2Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

So yea, how old was he?


3. Did the fig tree wither immediately or after a period of time? Matthew 21:10-22, and Mark 11:11-26.

Matthew 21:10-22
10And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

11And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

14And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

15And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

16And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

17And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

18Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.

19And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

20And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Mark 11:11-26
11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

16And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.

17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

18And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

19And when even was come, he went out of the city.

20And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.

21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


So did the fig tree wither immediately or after a while? And did the disciple's witness it immediately or after a while? And when did Jesus actually curse the fig tree?


Good luck.



--------------------------------

1. The New Oxford Annotated Bible, New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha, Third Edition.

Reading over Lucadious' reply the first time I thought to myself, "sure, I could go for that. It makes sense." However reading it a second time a little more seriously revealed it lacked a little thing I like to call, "substance". The enitre explanation was nothing but assertions. If the true answer is something like "they're not talking about the same slaves 'here' as they were 'there'", I'm fine with that! But he never showed the "why" throughout the entire post. Lucadious gave an answer but seemed to base it on nothing. That is all I wish to request through this post, to find out where in the text he derived this idea that these verses were talking about different types of slavery and not speaking more universally.

I'll make it easier on everyone reading and actually point out what I'm refering to.

For the first part of the contradiction concerning laws of slavery found in Deut 15.12-18, Ex 21.1-6, Lev 25.39-46 Lucadious claims that these verses seperate issues of slavery and completley ignores the contradiction I point out. I'm well aware of what these verses are talking about before and after the contradiction (what a male slave is to if he gets married, etc etc) my concern comes when they actually discuss what happens when a man wants to stay with his master, and the female slave would like to do the same. Let's take a closer look here:

Exodus21: 5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

THEN

Deuteronomy15:16And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;

17Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.


As you can see, when comparing these verses on how to handle men and women when they do not want to leave their master's, the verses contradict. Exodus warns not to do the same with the women servant as the man servant, whereas Deuteronomy says that you should do the same. These two situations line up perfectly, they're not speaking about different slaves here, the only conclusion we can come to is that this is a contradiction. Try again.


Lucadious made a much better, and more detailed reply for section "B" of the contradiction. So to reward him I will concede that section "B" is not a contradiction. As for God saying something through the King James Version vs. the NRSV, is Lucadious telling me that God himself believes in Unicorns? Heh, if I were him I would calm down on the cocky tone when refering to the KJV, at least if he still wants to believe that the KJV is the only true Word of God.

haha, this just in... I have school, lots and lots of school. It is common form in this group to take a while in between posts. Go look at some of the other debates.

Also, I am a bit confused because you posted out of order, at least according to the order we set-up previous to the debate. I'll get to your latest post maybe thursday, it is really complete gibberish so I'll have to take extra long to make a flow chart, and some graphs to follow your train of thought here. God is confusing hey? At least according to the KJV.