Yeah, no kidding. This is my favorite question to ask just to hear the crickets chirping.
What about transits to house cusps? Since they for the most part have a backward movement this means they are in the house before they hit the cusp. Does this change things?
alchemividaWrote:
Yeah, no kidding. This is my favorite question to ask just to hear the crickets chirping.
What about transits to house cusps? Since they for the most part have a backward movement this means they are in the house before they hit the cusp. Does this change things?
Oooh -- that is an EXCELLENT question. I am now also more curious about Nodal transits. But I got nothing to say about them, alas, I have never paid them much attention except in Return charts.
One of the practical applications for the transiting Nodes is for timing when you could be in danger of getting arrested. Some friends of friends challenged me to use astrology to figure out what happened to one of them on a certain date. I had the natal chart of the friend and the transits for the requested date. Nothing out of the ordinary popped up. They said that the guy was arrested for DUI. Suddenly I remembered what Nick said about squares to the Nodes often showing up in charts of arrests, and I realized I had only been looking at the planets, I didn't even bother with the nodes! But there it was, some configuration involving the Nodes, Neptune and the moon, describing the situation pretty well. I took a guess that the police probably did a lot of DUI-busts in that time, and the kid said that the police had said that.
I was really stressed to get a paper done one time. I remember I saw there was some bad configuration with the Nodes or something conjunct my natal south node. I was very tempted to just plagiarize and edit furiously but considering the astrological factors going against me, I decided to just slog through the work. After we turned them in, a few papers were suspected of plagiarism, and one kid got full-on busted for it.
I wish I knew how I could use the Nodes to take advantage of events rather than just avoiding bad ones!
The nodes are traditionally thought to be malefic in most traditions of astrology prior to the late 20th century because they are the eclipse points of the Sun and Moon. I would say more, but I'm not sure that is the kind of interpretation that you are looking for exactly.
ChrisWrote:
The nodes are traditionally thought to be malefic in most traditions of astrology prior to the late 20th century because they are the eclipse points of the Sun and Moon. I would say more, but I'm not sure that is the kind of interpretation that you are looking for exactly.
Come on Chris, let 'er rip. I am totally interested in your take! In the meantime, here are some ideas to stoke the fire:
The south node is bad because we tend to be too attached, in a sort of instinct driven bondage - security driven, prone to perceive and relate from behind a screen colored by past experience.
The north node is bad because we are afraid of the unknown, lacking experience, maybe a little naive and inept.
Of course leaving it at good and bad is not too enlightened is it? Even so, for lots of us its realistic enough. South node represents deep soul level resources that benefit all around when used well and not as a crutch when other potentials could be developed and be more useful for the circumstances at hand. North node represents the magic of potential in development. When we face our fear of the unknown and go for it, a special grace, grace that we often need in challenging situations, goes to work for us and through us.
The eclipse thing, so true. Where the nodes go, so go the eclipses. Here is where we must align our personal will with the will of the cosmos. If you want the Divine to accompany you on your life path, you simply must go where the Divine is heading!
SarahWrote:
I thought the Nodes-as-malefic-influence was a Jyotish thing? Huh.
So is the transiting Nodal axis kind of like habit versus tasty possibility? Pretty similar to the natal meaning? Just wondering. It's going over my Moon/DSC this fall, and plus it seems like the cycle is long enough to have some real developmental significance. If you know what I mean.
Do you know the story of Rahu and Ketu, and the Demigods and Demons dealing with the nectar of immortality known as amrita? Perhaps Moses or one of the other jyotishis who frequent the list will add it to this thread. It is very interesting and sheds some allegorical light on the "bad" take that seems to come from jyotish. Really that is also an oversimplification. We need as an astrological community to learn to use these ideas as allegory so we can see with our minds what is going on with our psyches. If it comes to it, I will render the story, but I suspect Moses will do it more justice when he returns from seeing Ammachi.
The thing about the nodes even in the western tradition is they represent forces in the psyche that commonly operate from beyond the everyday awareness and sense of self's perspective. It is not that they cannot be expressed consciously and well, but that it takes quite a bit of introspective effort and commitment to self awareness and self mastery in order to do so.
I will be glad to pursue these ideas further if no one else will step up to the plate. Remember, we want to create a no superstition zone in astrology! (Actually I just made that up, but I think its a great idea, don't you?)
are the Nodes REALLY that unconscious? Because like, I notice when I'm not pulling my weight that I kind of operate my entire chart from a 4th house/Capricorn angle...I'm crusty and hermitish and withdrawn. And when I AM pulling my weight and actually engaging in my life, I approach everything with a 10th house/Cancer angle...my heart is open, and I'm more visible and vulnerable and stuff. So yeah.
But I'll stop asking questions and wait to for Jyotishi story time. When is the Amma thing transpiring? Today, wasn't it?
Same here, but different houses. However, would we notice this if we didn't study astrology?
are the Nodes REALLY that unconscious? Because like, I notice when I'm not pulling my weight that I kind of operate my entire chart from a 4th house/Capricorn angle...I'm crusty and hermitish and withdrawn. And when I AM pulling my weight and actually engaging in my life, I approach everything with a 10th house/Cancer angle...my heart is open, and I'm more visible and vulnerable and stuff. So yeah.
But I'll stop asking questions and wait to for Jyotishi story time. When is the Amma thing transpiring? Today, wasn't it?
We can and must become fully conscious, able to express our entire spectrum of motivations consciously. But when we don't, the sub-conscious has lots of material to work with and is always at the ready to kick in, isn't it. The trouble is the sub-conscious, especially the deepest darkest layers of the sub-conscious is often loaded up with attitudes beliefs and behaviors that are counter-productive if not downright self destructive. It is those energies that must be healed and raised into the light of day. These energies tend to be beyond the reach of the conscious mind. This is one of the reasons to develop a meditative introspective practice. We want to develop the conscious awareness to turn the mind back on itself and carve out a direct path connecting the conscious awareness to energies that otherwise function without awareness, simply repeating patterns conditioned by past experiences and environmentally generated suggestions, which the advertisers know will influence the ways we use our creative powers. Our peers, even with their best intentions, will bombard us with lots of suggestions that might not be good for us at all. So in addition to introspection and self analysis, our meditative practice can include auto-suggestions to off set the suggestions coming from outside. Nothing is more important than our practice of self awareness and self responsibility!
Bear in mind that in these spiritual stories like that of Rahu and Ketu, that all the players in the stories represent aspects of ourselves at work in our lives. The demi-gods represent aspects of ourselves operating at conscious and creative levels of expression while the demons represent aspects of ourselves still trapped in self limiting, conditioned forms of expression that cannot ever make us happy or fulfilled.
Ok enough of that rant for now. Amma's public programs in New Mexico were yesterday and today. Starting tomorrow the retreat begins, so many of the folks not attending the retreats will most likely be traveling home tomorrow.
Here is a little advance hint not necessarily given away in the jyotishi story: The transiting nodes of the Moon when contacting personal points in a chart including the 4 angles, often can bring one a moment of fame within one's social circles. If one's social circle is the world stage, that can mean world fame. If one's social circle is more local, a city or a neighborhood, then that is the framework within one's notariety manifests. Sometimes it may be the relationship we have with the cops or other authority figures if our karma merits.
SarahWrote:
I thought the Nodes-as-malefic-influence was a Jyotish thing? Huh.
Well, the Vedic astrologers do seem to be much more adamant about the nodes being mainly malefic and they do use them much more than any other tradition of astrology, but there are variations of this idea in Hellenistic, Medieval and early modern astrology. There are some notable exceptions in the medieval tradition that we will look into. Interestingly, the idea that the nodes have something to do specifically with reincarnation wasn't invented until sometime around the early 70's when a few authors sort of hinted at this notion and then a few people sort of took the idea and ran with it.
In the Hellenistic tradition they weren't used that extensively as specific interpretive devices, but they were noted and you can find some discussion about them in a few authors. There is this famous passage in Vettius Valens 2nd century work the Anthology where he is talking about electional astrology and the only real advice that he gives is just to not to begin anything while the Moon is in the quadriplicity of the nodes. He says that the north node breaks down the power of the sign that it is transiting through and its ruler. He says that he always tries to avoid starting things when the Moon is transiting the north node by conjunction, opposition and squares and he "was in the habit of regarding this inception as inconstant and incomplete", but every once in a while he wouldn't have a choice but to begin something when such a configuration was in the sky and each time things went badly. This isn't a matter of simple superstition, but of a normal working astrologer paying attention to what sort of configurations occur with certain events and then relaying his findings accordingly.
At some point probably around the 5th century the Persian astrologers gave the nodes exaltation signs in thema mundi, assigning the north node to Gemini and the south node to Sagittarius. This is likely where their later associations with Saturn and Mars came from since Saturn has its joy in the 12th house and Mars has its joy in the 6th. The 12th and 6th house in the thema mundi are Gemini and Sag, respectively. These exaltations are mentioned by the 9th century astrologer Abu Ma'shar. At one point he is talking about the "misfortune of the planets" and after talking about afflictions from Mars and Saturn he starts talking about the nodes and basically says that it is bad times when the Sun is within 4 degrees of orb of either of conjunction with the nodes, or if the Moon is within 12 degrees of orb of a conjunction. But then he tells us that
Some of the early writers claimed that the Head [of the Dragon] is of the nature of increasing, and if the malefics are with it, it increases their harming. But the Tail [of the Dragon] is of the nature of decreasing, and if the benefics are with it, it detracts from their good fortune, and if the malefics are with it, it detracts from their harming. Because of this, the majority of them said that the Head was a benefic with the benefics and a malefic with the malefics, and the tail was a benefic with the malefics and a malefic with the benefics.
It is unclear if he is endorsing this view, or if he is merely reporting it. It would appear that it got picked up though because sometime later in the 13th century Bonatti essentially repeats the same thing with some elaboration when he tells us that
The Head of the Dragon is naturally a fortune and of a masculine nature, but by accident sometimes becomes and infortune. For its nature is composed of the nature of Juptier and of the nature of Venus; it increases and signifies matters which sustain an increase of kingdom, namely, dignities, substance, high rank, and good fortune. And Adila and Argafalan said that it is proper for the Head [of the Dragon] to augment [things] except in the giving of years, for the Head diminishes a 12th part of these years when it is the significator. Wherefore when the Head is with fortunes, it increases their fortune, and when it is with malefics, it increases their malice, and then it becomes an infortune accidentally. And the years of its firdar are 3.
But the Tail [of the Dragon] is naturally evil, and of the female nature, but sometimes by accident it becomes a fortune. And its nature is composed of the nature of Saturn and Mars. And it signifies decrease, and downfall, namely, accident, poverty, and the decrease of everything good, and of all fortune. And likewise the philosophers said that it is proper for the Tail to diminish so that when it is with fortunes, it lessens their fortunes, and when it is with malefics, it diminishes their malice, and at the time it becomes a fortune accidentally. Wherefore it has been said that the Head is a fortune with fortunes, and with infortunes a malefic; but the Tail is malefic with good planets, and benefic with evil ones.
Earlier, in the 12th century, Ibn Ezra said essentially the same thing without so many words, but in a footnote to this passage in the translation of Ibn Ezra Rob Hand says that "This doctrine is widely found cited in medieval renaissance astrology texts, but it does not seem to be widely observed."
By the 17th century Lilly also repeats what the medieval astrologers had been saying, but he seems to disagree on certain points:
The Head of the Dragon is Masculine, of the nature of Jupiter and Venus, and of himself a Fortune; yet the Ancients doe say, that being in Conjunction with the good he is good, and in conjunction with the evil Planets they account him evil.
The Tayle of the Dragon is Feminine by Nature, and clean contrary to the Head; for he is evil when joyned with good Planets, and good when in conjunction with the malignant Planets. This is the constant opinion of all the Ancients, but upon what reason grounded I know not; I ever found the North Node equivalent to either of the Fortunes, and when joyned with the evil Planets to lessen their malevolent signification; when joyned with the good to increase the good promised by them: For the Tayle of the Dragon, I always in my practise found when he was joyned with the evil Planets; their malice or the evil intended thereby was doubled and trebled, or extreamly augmented, &c. and when he chanced to be conjunction with any of the Fortunes who were significators in the question, though the matter by the principal significator was fairely promised, and likely to be perfected in a smal time; yet did there ever fal out many rubs and disturbances, much wrangling and great controversie, that the businesse was many times given over for desperate ere a perfect conclusion could be had; and unlesse the principal significators were Angular and wel fortified with essential dignities, many times unexpectedly the whole matter came to nothing.
When it comes to actually delineating the south node he seems to give it largely malefic significations:
And as it is the first house, it represents the head and face of man, so that if either Saturn, Mars or South Node be in this House, either at the time of the Question, or at the time of birth, you shall observe some blemish in the face, or in that
[In the 10th house] Saturn or South Node usually deny Honor, as to persons of quality, or but little esteem in the world to a vulgar person, not much joy in his Profession, Trade or Mystery, is a Mechanick.
By the early 20th century Alan Leo starts importing eastern concepts of karma and reincarnation into western astrology where they had not previously been present and makes statements such as
To-day my whole belief in the science of the stars stands or falls with Karma and Reincarnation, and I have no hesitation in saying that without these ancient teachings Natal Astrology has no permanent value.
but he doesn't seem to use the nodes much at all, and when he does it does not appear to be in the contemporary sense of past lives and such.
By the 30's and 40's the Uranians and the Cosmobiologists are using the Nodes pretty extensively in their midpoint work, but they are associating them mainly with society, groups, relationships and the public.
Indian astrologers of course consider the nodes to both be largely malefic in the things that they signify or the times that they correlate with in peoples lives. Traditionally Rahu (North node) is said to behave similarly to Saturn and Ketu (South node) to Mars. Indian astrologers say that the north node is exalted in Taurus and the south node is exalted in Scorpio. In the Indian system the nodes are used so extensively that they have been raised almost to the status of planets. Interestingly, even though the nodes are used so extensively in this system, and the concepts of karma and reincarnation and closely intertwined with the Indian tradition of astrology, there is no notion that the nodes have some explicit association with past and future lives.
My own position on this is essentially a mixture of the Indian astrologers and the Cosmobiologists in that I tend to notice that the nodes do tend to correlate more with pretty bad times in peoples lives, and that there also seems to be some social dynamic involved often times. The idea that the south node represents the natives past life and the north node their future is cute, but I don't really see any basis for it except that a couple people in the 70's thought that it sounded like a good idea. Indian astrologers say that the birth chart represents this life and the karmas that you are to experience right now. If they wanted to look at the past life, then Frawley points out that you would look to the 12th harmonic, or dwadashamsha chart. For future lives you would look at the 9th harmonic, or navanmsha chart. I also like the Indian astrologer Dennis Harness' take on the nodes where he says that the South is kind of like Mars and Neptune, but in the sense that it is often the lower expression of Neptune most of the time. Both nodes have their good and bad points of course, but they do seem to incline mainly towards the negative. Rahu signifies things like adversaries, separations, crime, harsh speech, and fear, while Ketu is occult studies, mystical experience, intrigues, confusion, doubt, vagueness, accidents, sleep and dreams. My main use for them is when using the Vedic dasha/time-lord systems, particularly the vimshottari dasha system. I think that that is a very good way to really test their nature on a number of charts by seeing how specific people deal with their rahu and their ketu periods. It is often not very pretty, although certainly their are certain lessons to be learned in a broader philosophical sense. That doesn't necessarily make it any easier though.
